Lancelot Schaubert — Hey there, Matthew Kressel! So when did you first dip your toe into the genre? Or into make believe?

Matthew Kressel — The first time I wrote anything with the hope of it being published was in college after I had one of the most incredibly vivid dreams of my life, and I woke up, excitedly telling my roommate all about it, and he encouraged me to write it down. I started this huge sprawling science fiction novel that I never finished, but the urge to keep writing never stopped. I didn’t start writing “seriously” though until 2002 after I took a writing class at the New School taught by the late great Alice K. Turner, former Playboy editor.

Lancelot Schaubert — Oh that’s wild, I didn’t know you were under Turner. Did Alice edit some of the stories King sold to them in the early days?

Matthew Kressel — Alice edited a whole bunch of supremely famous writers in Playboy that, had I thought about it for more than a second, I probably would have been too nervous to speak up in class. But Alice was so down to earth and friendly that after the first day I didn’t really think about that too much. I know she edited Stephen King, Ray Bradbury, Ursula K. Le Guin, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., Arthur C. Clarke, Doris Lessing, Donald Westlake any many others.

Lancelot Schaubert — That’s amazing. So we have her to thank for the inclusion — and career-helping payouts — of Playboy’s… more literary tenure.

What was that dream about?

Matthew Kressel — I dreamt about being a cadet navigator on this spaceship in the far future. We were on some planet that wasn’t Earth, but very Earth-like, when the captain called me away from my post on the bridge to a chamber where there was some kind of science experiment going on. Before we entered the chamber, a purple blob of luminous light emerged from the top of the captain’s head. The light flickered stroboscopically and hypnotically, but before I could react she ushered me into the room.

I was told to sit down beside this young girl on a wide chair that had a hood, sort of like a Ferris wheel carriage. Suddenly the carriage underwent a strange transformation, and in the next moment the walls of the ship became transparent, and I’m rolling down a grassy hill beside our parked starship. The sun was high and the birds were singing, and my heart was soaring, and it was one of the most beautiful feelings I’ve ever had (even to this day). The stars came out, even though it was daytime, and I could tell by their positions that something momentous was about to happen. I immediately realized that the ship and my captain and especially this experiment I was unwittingly made a part of was pure evil, and only I could stop this evil from happening. My captain then said to me, somehow transmitting her voice across the growing distance between us, “We will find you. You will not escape.” I was terrified, but somehow knew she would never catch me. I was invincible now. Then I woke up. It turns out that my roommate had been to the campus student center, where they were giving out free CDs of classical music. He had been playing the CD at high volume, not realizing I was napping. During the entire dream “Se tu m’ami” by Cecilia Bartoli was playing, and to this day I can’t hear the song without getting chills.

Yeah, Alice was a rock star. But totally humble too. She was also one of the founders of the Fantastic Fiction at KGB reading series, which I now co-host. I miss her.

Lancelot Schaubert — Oh I didn’t know that, that’s wild.

That’s quite the dream. Two questions: (1) any idea as to its meaning? (2) Any chance you’ll revisit whatever you tried writing about it?

Matthew Kressel — I’m sure a Jungian psychologist could have a field day with that dream. There are so many symbols and archetypes. I’ve tried to unravel its meaning many times, but never came to any firm conclusion other than my imagination waving and shouting very loudly at me to not forget about her.

I’m not sure if I’ll ever write that story. I have it trunked somewhere, and maybe someday I’ll revisit it. I honestly haven’t thought about it in years until now!

Lancelot Schaubert — What horror, scifi, fantasy stories were foundational to you growing up? In any medium?

Matthew Kressel — I remember watching 2001: A Space Odyssey with my dad when I was maybe five, and the stargate scene came on, and it totally freaked me out. Hal freaked me out too, his calculated murder. There was a time that just the shape of the pod window, that egg-shaped oval, freaked me out. But it fascinated me and I kept coming back to it. Same too with Close Encounters, especially where young Barry runs off into the woods, following the unseen aliens. I was about his age at the time I first saw it. Holy shit, it freaked me out. But in a good way. I needed to know more. And of course, Blade Runner. My cousin was the first to point out all the subtle clues that Deckard might be a replicant, not to mention all the nuance, and I ended up watching the movie over a hundred times since. I also have very fond memories of watching Star Trek:TOS with my dad. To this day, the sound of the bridge beeping brings me back to that time.

As for books, one day my dad comes home from the library with a huge cardboard box of sci fi books they were selling for like a penny each. I tore through all the Clarke, Asimov, Niven, Heinlein. I read indiscriminately. Among one of the books was The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath by Lovecraft. That blew my mind at the time. I went on a Lovecraft tear, reading everything I could find by him. I didn’t pick up on the racism until coming back to him much later as an adult. I never got that the weird “other” was often just a thinly veiled metaphor for cultures/peoples he didn’t like. What I loved was the sense of mystery underneath ordinary reality. If I had to pick some of my favorite books as a child, I’d say The City and the Stars, and Childhood’s End, both by Clarke. And also The End of Eternity by Asimov. I also have really fond memories of The Starrigger books by John DeChancie. They’re kind of campy and don’t age well (there’s a lot of sexism, if I recall), but I loved the idea of flying around space in this giant “truck” that was also your home. I probably put much more into that story than was actually there.

Lancelot Schaubert — Truckers in space is a thing. That’s basically ALIEN, right?

I honestly haven’t read a bit of Lovecraft, having learned of his racism first. I’m not beyond reading hard works I disagree with, sometimes it’s just a turn off and I never start. Is that work worth it?

Matthew Kressel — Starrigger was more Smokey and the Bandit than Alien, but yeah I suppose it was sort of like that. The last book had some time travel stuff and paradoxes in it that as a kid blew my mind.

There’s so much work today that wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Lovecraft’s influence. For example, True Detective seasons 1 and 4 are basically Lovecraftian tales. That’s not to excuse his racism at all. I know many writers who refuse to read him, and I think that’s totally acceptable, once you know how he really felt about certain groups of people. But you might not get as much out of Victor LaValle’s The Ballad of Black Tom if you haven’t read Lovecraft’s “The Horror at Red Hook.” A lot of recent cosmic horror has been grappling with and challenging Lovecraft’s legacy, his racism and his influence, and I think that’s a good thing.

(Another story that comes to mind is The Dream Quest of Vellit Boe by Kij Johnson, where the protagonist is a middle-aged woman, and meant as a kind of challenge/critical response to Lovecraft’s Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath.)

Lancelot Schaubert — Oh that’s cool.

Yeah, I… tend to think the other way. Often I grow the most from some of my antagonists. I figure if certain thinkers aren’t still getting money from my purchase, knowing where they went wrong is just as helpful as knowing where others went right. I want to study the original, authentic thing as much as possible — but now and again, spotting some counterfeits can help you see them in the wild. It is, however, harder when it’s a personalized attack on some of my own heritage. So I get that.

Oh that’s cool.

Do you think that’s led to more monster love stories like John Wiswell’s work, whom you had on recently?

Matthew Kressel — It’s possible. I can’t say specifically for John Wiswell, who just read for us at the Fantastic Fiction at KGB series. Or any author really. Most writers’ influences are all mushed up together in this great big abyss we call the subconscious, and it’s very hard to say where any idea actually “comes from.” Personally, I feel Lovecraft was a nihilist who believed humanity is just a blip in an uncaring, meaningless universe, and that we’re ultimately helpless beings in that vastness. Recently I’ve been writing a lot of fiction that’s intentionally against what I perceive as a current recurring theme of nihilism in a lot of modern fiction. We may be just a blip in cosmic time, but while we’re here, we can still do amazing things together. In other words, we can make the future we want. It doesn’t have to be bleak.

Lancelot Schaubert — Wiswell says he was really into dragons growing up, so entirely possible that Lovecraft had nothing to do with it. I’ll ask him. I’m curious now. (Confirmed: Wiswell not inspired by Lovecraft at all. Likes to hang out in areas that would have terrified Lovecraft.)

Reminds me of “Lovecraft in Brooklyn” by The Mountain Goats.

That’s true about the polyphonic spree of influence. Except with Tolkien—Lewis said trying to influence that man was like trying to influence an oak or a mountain. You’re right, though, about nihilism. I’m about as philosophically opposed to nihilism as it gets: I believe in the uncaused ocean of being and light upon which our obviously contingent reality is predicated. So that kind of helplessness even, to me, negates the very writing of these kinds of stories themselves. Do the story the nihilist writes even exist for the nihilist? If so, why write at all? Why even breathe? I’m with you. In that vein, what’s your fave hopepunk?

Matthew Kressel — Probably the best optimistic bit of SF I read, and the one that has had the most influence on me, is 2312 by Kim Stanley Robinson. It posits a future where humanity has settled the Solar System. But it’s not a utopia. There are forces trying to destroy the progress humanity has made. And Earth has been decimated by centuries of abuse. But there’s one part – and I won’t spoil it if you haven’t read it – which was just so “punk” in the original sense of the word, and original, that I was moved to tears. Those who say optimistic SF can’t have narrative tension or conflict, because all the problems are solved, don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

Lancelot Schaubert — Funny story about him: he was roommates with the Alaskan foundation head who gave us the grant for the Alaskan short film last year. I got the red mars series in Alaska because of that, never heard of him before.

Oh that sounds awesome

Should I read that first?

Matthew Kressel — Very cool. The world can be very small sometimes.

Lancelot Schaubert — Red Mars seems bleak at times

Well that’s sort of the point of Tolkien’s eucatastrophe, you’re familiar with the concept, I’m sure?

Matthew Kressel — I found Red Mars a bit of a slog compared to 2312, which was great. I also really enjoyed New York 2140 and The Ministry of the Future. The latter is basically a guidebook to how we solve the environmental crisis.

Lancelot Schaubert — Oh that’s fun. Doesn’t KSR teach or something?

Matthew Kressel — I don’t know if he teaches, but he’s a scholar by any definition. Some of his chapters are basically treatises on environmental science and economics. Which could read as extremely dry, but he always somehow knows how to hold my attention.

Lancelot Schaubert — What are your own personal goals when writing a specific story and also with your body of work?

Matthew Kressel — My goals change with each story/novel I write. When I’m in the zone, when I’m writing, I’m just focusing on the work. It might be the chapter or scene or even one sentence. I don’t consider big-picture stuff until the draft is done. Then I ask myself: does this convey the story I wish to tell? Is it well written? Is it immersive? Is it satisfying? I find that when I have a “goal” with a story (other than the instigating idea) it tends to flatten my enthusiasm with it. What I mean is that, for me, writing is a “right brain” task, where I try to let my subsconscious take over. The moment it becomes too cerebral, too “left brained” then it loses something for me. All that stuff comes later with edits and refinement. First drafts are typically id driven.

Career wise, I would say my overarching goal is to build a body of work I can be proud of. Sure, success would be great, but I want to be able to look back at the body of work I created and feel satisfied that I put 110% of my energy into it, that they are expressions of me, my feelings, my thoughts. Not everyone may vibe with those expressions, but they are true and honest and sincere.

Lancelot Schaubert — You outline at all?

Matthew Kressel — I outline longer works, like novels, but I’m not religious about following it. I see them more as rough guides rather than rules to follow. The story will always evolve beyond an outline.

Lancelot Schaubert — What do you think those expressions, feelings, thoughts, convictions are? Do you have central themes? I’m thinking now of the list of themes that King says he returns to in On Writing and Danse Macabre?

Matthew Kressel — In following my id, it’s usually what’s bubbling around my subconscious. It can be: fear of AI, reactions against nihilism, my take on the Fermi Paradox, my evolving sense of self. For a time I kept returning to themes of how to keep going after a great loss (“The Sounds of Old Earth”, “The Last Novelist”, King of Shards…) More recently it’s been stories of human achievement and progress in the face of ever-present nihilistic forces. Maybe it’s a search for meaning in the chaos. I don’t set out to have themes necessarily. They come out in the work naturally.

Lancelot Schaubert — If you don’t mind me asking, was there a great loss? (You don’t have to answer that if it’s too personal).

Matthew Kressel — I’d rather not talk about the other thing. It’s a bit too personal.

Lancelot Schaubert — Totally get it on the personal thing— this is an interview, not some hard hitting expose. My comfort for your loss, whatever it happens to be.

What’s your take on Fermi?

Matthew Kressel — So I think that there is likely microbial life throughout the universe. There is a case to be made for panspermia, of life traveling from one planet to another via meteor impacts, solar winds, etc. Multicellular life is probably much rarer. It took some 3 billion years on Earth for multicellular life to arise. Before that, everything was single celled. Intelligent life is much more rare than that. It only happened on Earth in the last million years or so, and only once. Intelligent life is absolutely not guaranteed. I do think there is intelligent life out there somewhere, but I think it’s just few and far between. We haven’t found them yet because the universe is so BIG, and there are so few of us.(edited)

Lancelot Schaubert — Are you aware of The Extraterrestrial Life Debate: Antiquity to 1915 ?

The sourcebook?

Matthew Kressel — I am not. Sounds interesting!

Lancelot Schaubert — Why do you think there is intelligent life out there?

Matthew Kressel — Just the sheer number of stars and galaxies. The chances that life arose on our planet into single-celled organisms, then made the jump into multicellular life, then made the jump to intelligent life… If we are the only species in the universe that did those three incredible things, that just seems too extraordinary to me. I think we made it past several great filters. And I think there are probably more to come.

Lancelot Schaubert — Why would that be extraordinary, in your view?

(not saying I agree or disagree, more curious)

Matthew Kressel — It’s like winning the lottery three times, and each time you win, the odds of winning get harder and harder. We’ve made the mistake in the past thinking that we are somehow unique. The Earth was first the center of the universe, then it wasn’t. Then our galaxy was alone, and now we know there are billions of galaxies. Just the same,I don’t believe that humans are alone in the universe. But those other intelligent species may be so far away that we may never meet them.

Lancelot Schaubert — What if we were, though? Would that have any significance? That’s a fascinating premise: various islands of isolated humanities able to send one message in a bottle every five thousand years or something. We’d probably just ask for more pizza rolls and Netflix episodes.

Mild quibble, if you’ll forgive and bear with my nerdiness for a moment: it was more like we were both the center and not the center at the same time, with one Ptolmaic model prevailing — as is often the case with the scientific method — but I get what you’re saying there and agree that various prevailing models wax and wane in popularity. It was the prevailing model, the waning model at the time being the heliocentrism of Aristarchus of Samos (270 BC), Philolaus (470 – 385 BC), Heraclides of Pontus (4th century BC), Macrobius (AD 395—423), Nicholas of Cusa (14th century), etc. long before Copernicus spouted off his new theory of theories (particularly his certainty). In fact, in Almagest, Ptolemy himself basically says that any model explaining planetary movement comes mathematical machination and since we can’t know for certain what’s true, whatever’s simplest and keeps the numbers correct should be used. (“Saving the face” of all of the various considerations, basically a Occam’s razor without the formalization). Because of this, in Book 1, section 7 — Ptolemy himself posits a model where the Earth revolves in deference to the stars — admits it’s simpler, even — but doesn’t quite offer up a heliocentric system. I suppose I side with the Copernican model, but the Ptolemaic theory of theories myself — that Copernicus was right, but wrong about why and how he was right.

To use that as a metaphor: we live in an era where we both do think and do not think that other intelligent life is possible (which again, kind of goes with the history of this long debate through antiquity as evidenced in the sourcebook — some arguing that many texts even show proof that first contact has already happened). Do you think there’s a significance if we’re unique? And how do you think people will react upon finding out we’re not?

Matthew Kressel — I’m referring basically to our egocentrism and anthropocentrism. There is a long history in Western culture of thinking humanity is the center of the universe. Over and over again we see that it’s not true. And so thinking we are somehow unique in this cosmos with untold trillions of planets is pure hubris. And even if we are alone in all that, I’m not sure we would ever truly know. The universe is just so vast.

Lancelot Schaubert — Oh sure, agreed.

The whole “further up and further in” thing was the assumption that our planet was the lead to the macrocosm’s gold — that we live in the tiniest sliver at the lamest corner of the universe and moving “further up and further in” towards reality was both an interior journey and one of a proper spacefaring civilization.

Takes humility to see it that way, though. The blue dot and all.

Matthew Kressel — If we find out we’re not alone, like for example if we detect the signatures of life on another world, you know, microbial life or something, it would be big headlines for about a month, and then everyone would go back to watching Netflix. Unless aliens land on the White House lawn or something, I’m not sure it would change all that much, day to day, in our lives. But for me and I think a lot of people it would be life changing.

Lancelot Schaubert — Do you think it would mess a ton of people up? I mean there’s a spectrum of thought on this with Perelandra and Ted’s Story of Your Life at one end and frigging Independence Day at the other.

Matthew Kressel — Oh, for sure. I sometimes follow the /r/UFOs subreddit and people have had existential crises from literal balloons floating across battlefields. I’m sure it will cause some folks severe ontological shock. But I also wouldn’t be surprised that, after a few weeks, we shrug and go back to work.

Lancelot Schaubert — That’s why I think that sourcebook is important: knowing what great thinkers thought about this for millennea is a useful guide for sanity.

What about Ai? What possible fears could you have there?

Seems… innocuous enough…

Matthew Kressel — Some people assume, because I have been outspoken about AI use in fiction, that I’m against AI in general. That’s not true. I think AI has some potential great uses. But if you notice, most of what the current AIs or LLMs are going after first are the arts: image generation, writing, music. Why? Well, because artists want their work to be appreciated by others, and so they make it available online. And these AI companies are just vacuuming all that content up, without regards to copyright or ownership. And then they regurgitate it out without attribution. To me that’s theft. Most of them are not paying for the content they use (there are a few exceptions.) So in the short term, my fear is this theft. I’m less concerned about AGI. Everyone seems to think it’s right around the corner. But all these demos turn out to be highly curated theater designed to hike up stock prices. They haven’t solved the hallucination problem yet, where AIs make up wrong answers. And they haven’t cracked the black box, ie how the AI comes to its conclusion. Recently I saw someone saying that AI would soon replace 70% of jobs. That number seems…high. You have the problem of model collapse: when AIs are trained on AI-generated data, the models break down. The results are less “good”, less useful. When AI is everywhere, I think we’re going to see diminishing returns. (I actually just wrote a story about this.)

Lancelot Schaubert — Do you think general intelligence is actually possible? That an infinite number of quantitative steps can make for a qualitative leap? By qualitative, I’m talking about a jump akin to turning a living fish into space market derivatives or the qualia of the color blue into the total reality of an orgasm.

Ohhhhh tell me about the story. Have you sold it?

Matthew Kressel — I do think AGI possible, but I’m skeptical we’re as close as the hype suggests.

The story is called “Model Collapse” and is out on submission. I don’t want to say too much, but it’s about two “agents” who enter a top secret town that is under quarantine after a dangerous pathogen entered the environment.

Lancelot Schaubert — Curious why you think it’s possible. Other than that it’s fun to tease out in a scifi setting.

Oh that’s cool. I like that premise

Very 12 Monkeys vibes

Matthew Kressel — I mean, it happened with us. We’re AGI machines. So of course it’s possible. It’s just that it may not be possible to replicate with the current methods. I don’t know.

Lancelot Schaubert — Depends on if the brain is an antenna or a generator, I suppose. We’ve observed the correlation of thought and synapse, not the causal reality.

Also of the rest of the nervous system, I want to be careful there not to be confined to some Cartesian dualism.

yo tampoco sé

What are you really pumped about these days, reading-wise? Any genre, any topic — go hog wild.

Matthew Kressel — I loved There is no Antimimetics Division by qntm. Blew me away. It’s a self published book, and it breaks all the “rules,” but it somehow works spectacularly. It changed how I write. It’s not new, but Close Range, Wyoming Stories by Annie Proulx is another book that floored me. I couldn’t believe how she’s able to conjure up such strong characters with so few words. Really masterful. She reminds me of Cormac McCarthy, but without the nihilism. Where I End by Sophie White is insanely good body horror. Not for the squeamish. I also loved Not the End of the World by Hannah Ritchie, a non-fiction science book about how a lot of doomerism ignores the numbers. So many measurable metrics of life are improving, have improved, will improve. This doesn’t mean we don’t have work to do, but a lot of the narratives of destruction and gloom are overblown. My reading tends to jump around. Right now I’m reading His Master’s Voice by Stanislaw Lem.

Lancelot Schaubert — Is qntm and Sam Hughes the same person?

Those all sound great.

Where do you think the genre’s going or needs to go? What is unexplored? What topics get ignored?

Matthew Kressel — Yeah, they’re the same person.

I don’t think I read enough contemporary fiction to speak of trends. We’re definitely seeing more diverse voices, which is always a good thing. We’re also seeing a lot of consolidation of big publishing houses, and far less risk taking, which means that unless you’re coming to them with a pre-built audience, they’re much less likely to publish you. Big houses used to build an author’s profile over three, four, five books, recognizing that it takes time to build a reputation and audience. Not anymore. A lot of the heavy lifting now falls on the author, which is both good and bad. Good, in that there are a lot more places for authors to promote their work. And bad, in that not everyone has a talent for self-promotion. It seems much more of a hustle now than it’s ever been. Also I’ve seen self-publishing go from something that was looked down upon as recently as ten years ago, to something that has become a viable and even preferable option for many authors.

Lancelot Schaubert — I’m the same way. Haven’t read the western and eastern canon yet.

Yeah that’s true.

Any subjects or sectors of society you’d like to see in the spec fic world? I’m thinking of The Wizard’s Guide to Defensive Baking and the truckers in Alien and such

Matthew Kressel — I have a forthcoming novel, which I think I can say now that it will be seeing print in ’25, about a bad-ass grifter girl who goes on an odyssey across the galaxy looking for her missing father and uncovers vanished planets, alien gods, and a conspiracy that will change humanity’s future forever. She also really wants to buy an expensive space truck and “sail off into the deep.” So, yeah, as I said before, I love space trucks. (Really it’s analogous to more of a huge cargo ship, but she calls it a truck.)

There’s lots of big concept SF, first contact, galactic war, empires, etc., and I love all that and continue to write it, but I also love to read stories about people’s day to day lives in the far future. Like, 1000 years from now, what will a person’s average day look like? Or even 200 years from now. Will we be doing yoga on the Moon? Will there be Starbucks on Mars? I haven’t seen a lot of that, and that interests me.

Lancelot Schaubert — I mean I want a space truck now.

Matthew Kressel — Lol, yes.

Lancelot Schaubert — Certainly not hot yoga on Mars unless something changes about that biome.

Marsbucks I can get behind. Who needs sirens anyways?

The Mike Rowe of Robowtham’s Zetetic Astronomy. Like who wants to clean fatbergs on discworld?

Matthew Kressel — A lot of visions of the future that I’ve seen, even in shows I enjoy, like For All Mankind, the Expanse, etc., seem so sterile. It’s sort of military inspired, functionally brutalist architecture. I’d like to see a gothic cathedral on Mars. Or a Hindu temple orbiting Saturn. I never understand why the set decorators always make the future so gray and boring.

Lancelot Schaubert — But everyone loves Henry Kissinger, Matthew!

Oh word. Now you’re talking my language. Did you like Canticle for Leibowitz?

Matthew Kressel — I liked it, yes. I reread it recently for a Geeks Guide to the Galaxy podcast. You can hear my full take on it there. But I was surprised at how topical it was/is.

GGG#527: A Canticle for Leibowitz

Lancelot Schaubert — How so?

Matthew Kressel — The idea of fighting to retain hard-won knowledge in the face of vast ignorance, the need to fight for science over superstition and fear, and why passed on knowledge is precious. Also, the fear of nuclear annihilation is still very prevalent today, especially with what’s happening with Russia and Ukraine.

Lancelot Schaubert — For sure.

I feel it’s one of the most hopeful apocalypses we have outside of, say, Revelation 21 and 22 — leaves of the tree healing the nations, gold streets, water of life, no more curses, light, true names, “no more tears,” all of that hopeful stuff. Like The Road‘s answer to the abyss is basically fatherhood and the passing of genes. Station Eleven goes the Star Trek route and says “survival is insufficient” — so therefore the humanities and secular humanism will save us. Though it’s a wonderful apologetic for science fiction (a rather rare occurrence in the “literary” crowd, in my experience, they tend to be ignorant of the genre’s history), I feel that ethics have to come from somewhere. So there’s also The Stand by King, which pulls from that verse in Ephesians — “Therefore take up the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to withstand on that evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness.” — but it seems almost a bit of a “white magic / dark magic” occult take on it, in a way. Exceedingly violent as per usual with King. But certainly a good and evil showdown. The Book of Eli certainly preserves texts, the canon. Was that a book too? Or just a film? It’s also as violent as king, but in more of a Odyssey’s blind prophet kind of way. But Canticle, man. Like what’s saved?

Walter Millar seems to say, “Everything is spared from the wreck.” Councils, creeds, schematics of electricity, art, medicine, rockets, everything. Chesterton wrote “I have said that stories of magic alone can express my sense that life is not only a pleasure but a kind of eccentric privilege. I may express this other feeling of cosmic cosiness by allusion to another book always read in boyhood, “Robinson Crusoe,” which I read about this time, and which owes its eternal vivacity to the fact that it celebrates the poetry of limits, nay, even the wild romance of prudence. Crusoe is a man on a small rock with a few comforts just snatched from the sea: the best thing in the book is simply the list of things saved from the wreck. The greatest of poems is an inventory. Every kitchen tool becomes ideal because Crusoe might have dropped it in the sea. It is a good exercise, in empty or ugly hours of the day, to look at anything, the coal-scuttle or the book-case, and think how happy one could be to have brought it out of the sinking ship on to the solitary island. But it is a better exercise still to remember how all things have had this hair-breadth escape: everything has been saved from a wreck. Every man has had one horrible adventure: as a hidden untimely birth he had not been, as infants that never see the light. Men spoke much in my boyhood of restricted or ruined men of genius: and it was common to say that many a man was a Great Might-Have-Been. To me it is a more solid and startling fact that any man in the street is a Great Might-Not-Have-Been..” Canticle gave me that vibe: everything has a hair-breadth escape.

Other than The Man in the High Castle, it may be my favorite sci fi book of all time. It surprised me because it’s so atypical, so epochal, several different “main” characters.

You mentioned Hinduism too, its temples. And have decried nihilism. There’s a great article by James Blish in the William Atheling Jr. set of criticism called “Cathedrals in Space” in which he talked about how reticent most sci fi and fantasy writers have been about worldviews, philosophy, theology, and religion. He thought it needed to happen more often and in far more rubust ways. Do you think that’s changing a bit? That we’ll be able to have a stronger agora — a more Socratic place — to dialog about the First Things, the principle questions, that move us as societies? That we’ll be brave enough to talk about the questions that move us most deeply? Or do you think the brutal nihilism will win out? That it’ll just be mostly economies, armies, and vivisection that drives us?

Matthew Kressel — There are always forces working against nihilism. The force that compels a seed to grow a leaf or a bug to lay a million eggs is the same force that compels us as a species to survive. I see nihilism as an antagonist to that survival instinct. It’s an abreaction of the intellect to overwhelmingly negative input. Our intelligence and evolution has made us adept at seeing threats everywhere. But it’s also made us expert survivors. Nihilism as a philosophy can’t win, because it has the seeds of its own destruction. I don’t think nihilism will ever go away, but I see it as a pessimistic reaction to this period of so-called late-stage capitalism (though it predates this of course). I don’t know what ideas will predominate in the future, but I suspect it will be philosophies that align with human growth and exploration, because those will echo both internal and external realities.

Lancelot Schaubert — Shelob consumes herself?

You’ve led Fantastic Fiction for how long now?

Matthew Kressel — I started co-hosting with Ellen in April 2008, when Gavin Grant stepped down, so 16 years! It doesn’t feel that long.

Lancelot Schaubert — What have you learned in that time? Any favorite readers?

Matthew Kressel — I definitely learned what makes a good reading. There have been some great ones and some not so great ones. Jeffrey Ford is always great. Lawrence Connolly performs his stories entirely from memory. Livia Llewellyn’s readings are always intense, in a good way. Grady Hendrix is amazing live. Leanna Renee Hieber effortlessly enchants. So many good ones.

Lancelot Schaubert — What makes the better ones so much better?

Matthew Kressel — The best readers are usually very comfortable speaking to an audience and know how to engage them. It helps if the story is good, but that’s not always necessary.

Lancelot Schaubert — HA! So you’ve had some crappy stories that were well performed and therefore sold well?

Matthew Kressel — Well, sometimes a good reader can mask a not-so-good story by a good performance. This is because the reader can add nuance and emphasis to parts that aren’t in the text.

Lancelot Schaubert — Do you think there’s an inherent danger to good readers not actually putting into the text what they hear?

Matthew Kressel — Possibly. I know that there are certain narrators of audiobooks that are amazing. And on the other hand I have stopped listening to audiobooks because I didn’t like a particular narrator’s performance.

Lancelot Schaubert — True.

I did the audiobook of Bell Hammers, which is based on my grandpa’s voice (easy for me to imitate him). And that’ll either make you fall in love with the man or grate your every nerve for eight hours.

It’s gotten both reactions for sure.

For the readers and listeners who have never been to NYC or the Fantastic Fiction readings, can you describe the venue and vibe in as intimate details as possible? Sort of a description exercise that and I know Ellen has photographic evidence of every man, woman, ghost, and fae creature to have graced the doors, but maybe of the space as a character?

Matthew Kressel — The KGB Bar is an old dive bar sat snugly on the second floor of a pre-WWI building in New York’s East Village. You enter an old New York apartment building, climb up a steep flight of narrow stairs, then turn sharply right into a former speakeasy/kitchen for Ukrainian socialists that’s been repurposed as a literary arts bar. The bar is small and intimate, and people speak in hushed tones when they arrive, though there’s no need to. The walls are communist red, the color of blood, and decorated with authentic Soviet-era artifacts and Cold War kitsch. Though since Feb ’22 they replaced the Soviet flag and Baltika beers with Ukrainian varieties, since to my knowledge the Soviet connection was always more tongue-in-cheek than literal. The lights are dim, candles flicker on the tables from whiskey glasses, and the bar’s long history steeps into your bones like the baked in smell of cigarette smoke (no longer allowed) and the countless poured drinks. The crowd changes month to month, with some regular faces who are always engaged and welcoming. I make it a point to greet new people. Fantastic Fiction is a true salon for writers, editors, publishers, and fans to comingle for a few hours once a month in a great space. It’s a mini-convention. I love it.

Lancelot Schaubert — Mini-con. Or the barcon that ComicCon never mentions.

…at least in October

What about your other creative projects? What else are you making?

Matthew Kressel — I got really into 3d art during the lockdowns. I haven’t done a ton lately, but you can see my past adventures here:

https://www.matthewkressel.net/category/art

I’ve just published a book of writing advice called: DISPATCHES FROM THE OUTER DEEP: A GUIDE TO WRITING, EDITING, SUBMITTING, AND PUBLISHING SHORT AND LONG FICTION. It’s been doing quite well on Amazon, at one point reaching #1 new title in their Authorship Reference. Hopefully, it’ll make navigating the wide, weird world of publishing a little easier for folks.

Also, Mercurio D. Rivera and I are starting a podcast called NERD COUNT. We’ve already recorded one episode, but I want to have three in the can before we publish, so there is no gap. The topic is all things nerdy: books, tv, film, writing, publishing, the industry, etc. We’ll have the occasional guest too. I’m excited about it.

Lancelot Schaubert — That sounds wonderful

Last question: is there something I should’ve asked but didn’t or wouldn’t know to ask?

Matthew Kressel — Yes! I have several forthcoming publications that I’m over the moon about. Any one of them is reason enough for me to get excited, but I have four recent (and one not so recent) sales: Two short stories, both to big markets you have heard of (both on my writer Bingo card); A novella, which sold to a Major publisher, capital M; And a novel sale that I might have mentioned above. Three of the four stories take place in my “numenverse”, and I’m happy folks are going to see more stories in this world. I’m also revising a novel pitch for my agent, which is killing me (in a good way).

Lancelot Schaubert — Oh can I get a writer bingo card graphic from you with your publications crossed out? Or is that too hard of a 3D art ask hahahaha

Tell me more about your numenverse,

Matthew Kressel — I’ll see what I can do about the bingo card.

My Numenverse is a series of connected stories that take place over a span of millennia, from humans first leaving Earth, to our encounters with inscrutable god-like aliens called numens. Not all stories feature numens, but they are all interrelated in some way. You can see a list of the stories here, with the caveat that this list will be growing by at least three works soon:

https://www.matthewkressel.net/the-numenverse/

I have several works of fiction that take place in my so-called “numenverse,” a world where humanity will come into contact with inscrutable, god-like aliens that come to be known as numens. Not all stories reference the numens or are even about them, but the works listed here all take place in that:

(That picture is a 3d render I did of the planet Gilder Nefan, where the locals smoke a psychotropic drug called sweet jisthmus that allows them to commune with the non-physical numen realm.)

Lancelot Schaubert — Ha!

Oh that’s super cool. Is this based on Eastern Orthodox numinous, one of the philosophers or phenomenologists, or some other pneumatology?

While we’re swapping verses…

https://lanceschaubert.org/2018/02/27/introducing-the-vale-the-universe-in-which-i-write/

Matthew Kressel — It’s related to the term “numinous”, which I first encountered while reading Jung, and refers to the numen’s inscrutable, god-like aspects. The root “numen” is from Latin, which means “divinity.” Whenever people in my stories encounter the numens, their worldview is shattered, and they are forever changed.

I didn’t know about your Vale Megacosm. Sounds cool, I’ll check it out.

(FYI, I just signed a contract, so I can announce: “Five Hundred KPH Toward Heaven” which is part of my Numenverse, will be appearing in a future Asimov’s)

Lancelot Schaubert — Sweet! Congrats!

The Vale is mostly fiction but also part performance art — the roles of other creators is very important.

About Moksha: have you learned anything useful either for fans or for authors running that?

Matthew Kressel — I wrote a thread that went viral on Twitter (I refuse to call it X) about how, unless an editor loves your story, they’re most likely not reading the whole thing. They simply don’t have time. There are more writers today and it’s easier to submit than ever before, so editors are inundated with submissions. Moksha (and other online submission managers) make it easy for publishers to accept, read, and personally respond to submissions. But that means that, in order to catch an editor’s attention, your submission can’t just be good. It has to be great. I can’t help you make your story great — only you can do that — but I did write a blog post outlining a few things authors can do to make sure an editor keeps reading beyond the first page:

https://outerdeep.substack.com/p/the-dreaded-first-pageThe Dreaded First Page

Here’s an extra nerdy pic of me I love (Eddie from Stranger Things).

Lancelot Schaubert — Oh that’s excellent

Man yes, talk about why Eddie is the best character for a minute.

Matthew Kressel — I’m a Gen X kid, and I feel everyone in my generation knew an Eddie: the loner kid with the denim jacket, long hair, and ripped jeans, who listened to Slayer and Megadeath and who everyone was a little afraid of, but if you spoke to him for half a second you found out he was a really smart, sensitive, artistic kid and just super misunderstood. Also, Eddie saves the world by playing guitar, which is just awesome.

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